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Fan Site: NEMO's Ark
#11
Here is something that I spotted that I'm not sure if this is intended or not? Please correct me if I'm wrong....I'm posting it here because I think it needs a look at.

In the page of your account information, it says Keeps your codes for ___ number of days.

It seems this number is according to how many clicks you made for the one day.

Well the other day, I clicked 400-500 creatures and it said my codes would be kept for 4 days.

But then the daily reset happens and when I click later that day, that field of Keeps your codes for XX number of days completely resets to zero.

So that's what I think, might be incorrect? Shouldn't that field keep the number of days you have left for your codes to be kept for clicks? So basically that shouldn't be resetting to zero? Or am I wrong?

Just trying to understand the intent, because it seems if you want people to import their creature codes and after they click other people's creatures, you reward them by them not having to worry for two days about their codes staying up, that's cool, great. But with it resetting to zero, it doesn't seem to be giving you that benefit.

If this isn't the intention, then maybe it needs a fix, I dunno, just trying to give helpful feedback.
If I'm wrong though, then please disregard and I apologize.
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#12
(08-28-2020, 02:49 AM)Danafox Wrote: But then the daily reset happens and when I click later that day, that field of Keeps your codes for XX number of days completely resets to zero.

So that's what I think, might be incorrect? Shouldn't that field keep the number of days you have left for your codes to be kept for clicks? So basically that shouldn't be resetting to zero? Or am I wrong?

Thanks for the write-up! It's actually very intentional, though I totally see why you tripped across it. What happens is that it doesn't actually reset to zero, it's just supposed to make you sufficiently nervous about how many days you have left that you'll click again. 8D See the FAQ for more details.

(The Daily Dragon Fix page pointed out the site has 'Daily' in the name for a reason, but I can no longer make that reference. XD Though I guess I can point out that clicks reset on The Final Outpost site once a day, so it makes sense to preferentially click every day!)

I'll see if I can link the "keeps your codes for" line to the FAQ sometime this evening, which should at least make the information more accessible in context!

Thanks for the report :)
pinkgothic @ schlaugh | Dragon Cave | The Final Outpost
I am the right person to complain to about NEMO's Ark (The Final Outpost clicksite)
[ pronouns: ve/vis/ver - but not picky, use what you like! ]
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#13
(08-28-2020, 09:42 AM)pinkgothic Wrote:
(08-28-2020, 02:49 AM)Danafox Wrote: But then the daily reset happens and when I click later that day, that field of Keeps your codes for XX number of days completely resets to zero.

So that's what I think, might be incorrect? Shouldn't that field keep the number of days you have left for your codes to be kept for clicks? So basically that shouldn't be resetting to zero? Or am I wrong?

Thanks for the write-up! It's actually very intentional, though I totally see why you tripped across it. What happens is that it doesn't actually reset to zero, it's just supposed to make you sufficiently nervous about how many days you have left that you'll click again. 8D See the FAQ for more details.
Forgive me if this is out of line, but that just seems unnecessarily cruel. IMO it should be, on DDF & NA, an accurate display or no display at all. I personally click daily in any case, but learning that it's an intentional lie to get people to come back more often makes me want to not use either service. People will get 'sufficiently nervous' all on their own seeing they have less days left.

Otherwise, I like both services.
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#14
(08-28-2020, 10:35 AM)Shione Wrote: IMO it should be, on DDF & NA, an accurate display or no display at all.

Right, I hear you, though in that case, I would definitely say "no display at all" it is, then. :) As the FAQ says, it exists for emergency and anti-forgetfulness only, it is not meant to habitually absolve people from clicking - especially not for The Final Outpost, where the clicks reset every day. (On Dragon Cave they don't.)

I'll go ahead and axe it later! Thanks for the feedback.

(Edit: As a not very important sidenote, changing the number displayed instead would actually make it less accurate. ^_~ The text is "clicks: x / 20 today, keeps your codes for x days", i.e. the number it is referring to how long the clicks you did today keep your codes for. It would actually be inaccurate if it said "clicks: 0 / 20 today, keeps your codes for 3 days". It's nothing a wording change couldn't fix (e.g. "your codes are currently kept for x days"), but I figure it might be worth noting that the current wording actually is accurate. The sneakiness is in withholding the "your codes are currently kept for x days" information, it's not (meant to be!) in the wording.)

Edit II: I had another thought - I could remove the feature from NEMO's Ark. Does that maybe make more sense, given how different The Final Outpost is from Dragon Cave? What do you think?

(...also, just to be clear, since tone doesn't carry well online, I'm not trying to be contrary! I just think that changing it in the other direction will do way more harm than good, so I don't think it's an option. Which also means I'm honestly interested if it's maybe better if the feature just gets axed. <3)
pinkgothic @ schlaugh | Dragon Cave | The Final Outpost
I am the right person to complain to about NEMO's Ark (The Final Outpost clicksite)
[ pronouns: ve/vis/ver - but not picky, use what you like! ]
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#15
(08-28-2020, 03:08 PM)pinkgothic Wrote: I'll go ahead and axe it later! Thanks for the feedback.

I've gone ahead and done this, but please feel free and encouraged to discuss this further, it's easy to reactivate. :)

(I'd still be interested in knowing if the feature might be best removed for NEMO's Ark, if anyone thinks so.)
pinkgothic @ schlaugh | Dragon Cave | The Final Outpost
I am the right person to complain to about NEMO's Ark (The Final Outpost clicksite)
[ pronouns: ve/vis/ver - but not picky, use what you like! ]
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#16
The removal of it being noted is something I like- I want to click every day and not get lazy, and the number of days being listed makes it easier for me to be lazy XD
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#17
Hey thanks for answering my report/feedback.

I've never played Dragon Cave (since the creatures die and so that alone has made me choose to never play there). I've never used DDF either so I cannot really comment on the system etc. I know that dragons on DC need views daily or else they will die, and I know some players created fan sites to help people with this etc. But again, I might know these things, but I've never interacted with them/used them myself.

My confusion with this new system for final outpost fansite NA, is that I would think if you want us to click X number of creatures and then we gain the benefit of having our codes left up on your site for X number of days, then there should be a timer with the days/hours/minutes/seconds showing this and be left there to see always.

When the site had this counter showing me I had 3 days for my codes to remain and then it did the daily reset and that daily reset was no longer showing the days/time left, it essentially felt like that time I earned was erased - that is where I got confused and it just didn't make sense to me to hide that information and didn't understand why that timer was being reset to zero either.

I'm going to agree with Shione's view, it should be accurate display or no display. And no one likes underhanded things, nor do they like to be made to feel anxious on games (unless your playing a specific genre that is suppose to give u that emotion). But you know what I mean, people play these games to disconnect from real life and to relax and just enjoy. They don't want to be made anxious/nervous when some already might have more of that then they'd like in life. /end minor rant

I saw that you already did a fix/axed the area I talked about and are going for no display.

For me that's fine, I will visit/use the site anyway because I really like this game. I want to click because I want to and that I make the time for it. (cause really I do, everyone makes time to play their games)

thanks for reading and for your time
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#18
(08-29-2020, 03:48 AM)Danafox Wrote: I'm going to agree with Shione's view, it should be accurate display or no display. And no one likes underhanded things,

Apologies for picking only this part of your post out, but it left me a little confused, so I wanted to address it!

I suspect you and I simply use the term 'underhanded' to mean something different, but just in case we're on the same page regarding that word, since you don't seem to be using the term jokingly or tongue-in-cheekly (like I've been using 'nervous' in this thread, or 'sneaky' in the FAQ) and instead appear quite vehement, please allow me to defend myself:

The way this feature works was neither intentionally hidden (secretive) nor intentionally misleading (dishonest) and most especially not done with malicious intent, which is my understanding of the term. It's very deliberately been precisely and openly described in the FAQ, which I had hoped was sufficiently accessible (I was unfortunately wrong, as we've established). I apologise if you've gotten a different impression, but I would hope my prompt reaction proves that my intentions were always to be transparent about the algorithm and the reasons behind it and that I am not trying to be mean (indeed, the feature's intent - anti-forgetfulness - is quite the opposite; see the discussion starting at this post in the Daily Dragon Fix thread over on the Dragon Cave forums).

If you mean the active counter being intentionally hidden (even in a world with perfect FAQ information accessible and known to the user) is underhanded, I would like to politely and gently disagree - to me, this isn't particularly different from any other implementation detail somewhere being hidden for gameplay reasons ("gameplay" in this case is "click every day", and the reasons are expanded on in the FAQ entry), such as how many views at which point in time makes a Dragon Cave dragon sick, or how many views at which point in time makes a Dragon Cave dragon mature.

However, those example features are not confusing and being confusing was definitely a problem here. Confusion is never desirable! So I try to fix it as soon as I can (and removing it was the best bet given the stated goals of the feature).

Can we agree? <3
pinkgothic @ schlaugh | Dragon Cave | The Final Outpost
I am the right person to complain to about NEMO's Ark (The Final Outpost clicksite)
[ pronouns: ve/vis/ver - but not picky, use what you like! ]
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#19
Let me just start this large reply post by saying I'm also not speaking just for the sake of being contrarian.

(08-28-2020, 03:08 PM)pinkgothic Wrote:
(08-28-2020, 10:35 AM)Shione Wrote: IMO it should be, on DDF & NA, an accurate display or no display at all.

(Edit: As a not very important sidenote, changing the number displayed instead would actually make it less accurate. ^_~ The text is "clicks: x / 20 today, keeps your codes for x days", i.e. the number it is referring to how long the clicks you did today keep your codes for. It would actually be inaccurate if it said "clicks: 0 / 20 today, keeps your codes for 3 days". It's nothing a wording change couldn't fix (e.g. "your codes are currently kept for x days"), but I figure it might be worth noting that the current wording actually is accurate. The sneakiness is in withholding the "your codes are currently kept for x days" information, it's not (meant to be!) in the wording.)
the accuracy in that regard is somewhat subjective, not objective. so I can see how we have differing views on what would be 'accurate'. And you are right, a wording change would easily fix that.

(08-29-2020, 03:48 AM)Danafox Wrote: I've never played Dragon Cave (since the creatures die and so that alone has made me choose to never play there). I've never used DDF either so I cannot really comment on the system etc. I know that dragons on DC need views daily or else they will die, and I know some players created fan sites to help people with this etc. But again, I might know these things, but I've never interacted with them/used them myself.
Technically, it's a bit more complicated than that on DC. creatures can go days w/o views or clicks and still live. Similarly creatures can get too many and get sick. a bit off topic, but very short.

(08-29-2020, 03:48 AM)Danafox Wrote: When the site had this counter showing me I had 3 days for my codes to remain and then it did the daily reset and that daily reset was no longer showing the days/time left, it essentially felt like that time I earned was erased - that is where I got confused and it just didn't make sense to me to hide that information and didn't understand why that timer was being reset to zero either.
I'm also in the boat of feeling robbed of the effort/time i put in. like it was erased every time the timer reset.

(08-29-2020, 03:48 AM)Danafox Wrote: I'm going to agree with Shione's view, it should be accurate display or no display. And no one likes underhanded things, nor do they like to be made to feel anxious on games (unless your playing a specific genre that is suppose to give u that emotion). But you know what I mean, people play these games to disconnect from real life and to relax and just enjoy. They don't want to be made anxious/nervous when some already might have more of that then they'd like in life. /end minor rant
Yeah, i already deal with way more anxiety than is healthy in meat space, just living my life.

Lastly
(08-28-2020, 03:08 PM)pinkgothic Wrote:
(08-28-2020, 10:35 AM)Shione Wrote: IMO it should be, on DDF & NA, an accurate display or no display at all.
I'll go ahead and axe it later! Thanks for the feedback.
This alleviates my stress, and I'm sure others feel the same way. It's refreshing to see someone open to modifying their product/service based on user input.
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#20
@pinkgothic

I'm so sorry, I didn't mean to offend you with my poor word choices. No you aren't trying to be underhanded on purpose or anything like that, of course not.

And yes agree it's best the active counter be hidden/no display.
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